"Don't give me this crap that you start with "existence exists"
as your fundamental truth."
But I do.
"You derrived that "fundamental truth" from your ideas about
what you saw in your life."
This is not so. The concept 'existence' is not derived from prior ideas. It is
irreducible. The concept 'existence' was implicit in those ideas all along.
Objectivism simply makes the implicit explicit.
"You assumed what you saw was valid, never questioned it, and formed your
How do you know? Were you there? Or, are you projecting now? You are speaking
where you have no knowledge, Peter. It shows how desperate you are.
"It happens that this one is correct--but my view is more
What, your view about deities and universes being created ex nihilo by an act
of consciousness? How can you achieve consistency in philosophy by accepting
the primacy of consciousness? Subjectivism (the view that existence finds its
source in a form of consciousness) is no key to consistency. Indeed, if you
consistently practice a philosophy built on the primacy of consciousness, it
will lead you to the same end as Jesus: willingly embracing a premature death.
If that is what you want, and if that is what you call a virtue in your view,
by all means, Peter, have at it.
"Regardless, you cannot prove that physical existence exists."
Indeed, I nowhere attempt to. Existence is not in the realm of things which
can be proved. Again, it is axiomatic. However, since you do not seem willing
to let go of your own stolen concepts, you seem to think that existence is
subject to proofs. If you are consistent in anything, Peter, you are indeed
consistent in repeating your errors.
"Show me an error in the logic!"
You've accepted an error before you've even engaged in argument, Peter. That
is the nature of stolen concepts. The fallacy of the stolen concept is a
conceptual error. You will probably not be able to identify it so long as you
continue to remain unquestionably committed to arbitrary beliefs.
"It does not matter if I cannot identify the object or the means by which
this is so--it is necessarily so because of logic alone."
Then you reify the notion of logic, and thus assert logic without context or
reference to reality. This was the error of the rationalists (cf. Descartes,
etc.). This is a consequence of confusing the what with the how as we saw
"My points are valid regardless. Deal with them."
Peter, you sound quite frustrated here. Your points are valid
"regardless"? You mean, they're valid regardless of the stolen
concepts on which they're built? I do not accept that, and I certainly have no
obligation to "deal with them."
Peter rejects reason. This is a given. He has rejected his reason in favor of
his god-belief, which he must accept on faith. Yet when he encounters
non-believers, he attempts to use arguments in order to "prove" his
position. Thus, he exposes that in the end, he really doesn't trust in his
deity at all, since he needs some path of reasoning to get him there. It makes
no sense to him, yet he struggles to get others to see something he himself
cannot see from his own vantage. For Peter, this is mental torment, a holy
terror of his own making arising as he tries to hide from himself the fact
that his leg has been pulled. He dropped no line of crumbs on his trek into
the labyrinth, and he cannot find any golden thread leading to the exit. He is
thus trapped by his own mental disfigurement. And all he needs to do is
recognize and correct his own stolen concepts, and he can eventually be free
of this terrible burden which he insists on living with, and which he expects
others to accept.
"Can you name some objects which are 'non-physical'?"
"Well, the easy one would be God."
Can you name a non-physical object which actually exists?
"Another non-physical object: what about the idea of 'self'."
What qualifies this idea as an "object"?
Also, if both "god" and the idea 'self' are "non-physical
objects," then it seems that you are suggesting that you are aware of
both by the same means. This suggests that "god" is nothing but an
idea as such, or, a figment of your imagination perhaps? How would you
distinguish one "non-physical object" such as an idea, which is
dependent upon your consciousness, from another, such as the notion 'god',
which you might think exists independent of your imagination?
"I am concious of myself in a way seperate from my physical body. Cut
off my arm, and I still exist as myself. My physical body is not all of
me, only a part."
So, can your self exist apart from all of your body? Science shows that
organisms such as human beings can survive without an arm or without legs,
etc., thus affirming that these are not vital to human existence in the same
way that our heads and our torsos are. Do you think you would still exist as
yourself if someone removes your head from your torso, for example? Do you
think that there is no physical part of your body which is absolutely
essential to your existence? Since you claim to be a Christian, you most
probably assert the primitive idea that the "soul" leaves the body
upon death. Thus, in life, you are personally nothing more than a combination
of a corpse and a ghost awaiting separation. That's kind of gross, don't you
"But, I suppose this kind of intellectual fallout is what happens when
one is convinced that all reality is an illusion."
"I have never said that all reality is an illusion. I have only
said that you cannot prove otherwise."
Why would I have to prove otherwise? I do not accept any onus of proving the
negative, which is essentially what you're asking me to do here. If you think
there's reason to think that reality is an illusion, then simply provide some
evidence to this end. Otherwise, I really don't see the issue here. One can
continually throw up arbitrary obstacles in the path of reason and then claim
that "You cannot prove otherwise!" thus suggesting that the
arbitrary gains automatic credibility just by virtue of being suggested. I
think this habit is one of your chief hang-ups, Peter. Perhaps you've spent
too many a night at the movies?
"The only thing Peter has given us to justify this is that he thinks what
he perceives is not reality, but an illusion, and that he cannot prove
otherwise. Thus, granting this nightmarish view of his own mind credibility,
he thus argues that the illusory must be the norm (since he's renounced the
one tool he needs to dispel such absurdities, which is reason), and thus
concludes that existence is not 'necessarily physical'."
"Mock all you want, my position stands true."
Your position stands on stolen concepts and arbitrary ideas, as I've pointed
out numerous times now. You're simply in denial on this fact. But denying it
does not make it go away (as we've seen you suggest on a number of occasions
"...(continuing from before)...thus concludes that existence is not
"necessarily physical." Necessary for what?"
"This shows you do not understand the definition of philosophical
necessity. Necessity means that the conclusion must be so because of the
premises stated. The premise is that existence exists even if
physicality does not exist"
Peter, in all honesty, this premise makes no sense to me. It has drops all
reference to reality. Why should one accept it? I know why you've accepted it,
but as I've shown, you have to accept stolen concepts to argue for this
premise. It's a red herring issue anyway. It cannot be integrated into a
rational view of reality. Besides, all these concerns are satisfied by the
"If you deny all physical existence,"
Why would I deny "physical existence"? I just want to know why. Do
you want people to deny the fact that matter exists so that you can make room
for your "immaterial supernatural realm"? As I've stated, Peter, if
you want to believe this stuff, you need not go to all the trouble of
presenting flimsy, fallacy-soaked arguments on discussion lists to do this.
You simply go along your merry way and believe it if you like. Demonstrate
genuine trust in your deity. Constructing arguments in order to support your
supposed trust in alleged deities only undermines any claim to trust.
Meanwhile, I think the rest of us have better things to do.
"Can you prove that all existence is physical, CV?"
"It is not my position that "all existence is physical." This
dichotomy is all yours, not mine. I simply acknowledge that existence
"And yet you are the one arguing against me for a physical existence, CV,
saying that there is no such thing as non-physical existence."
I have not claimed that there is no such thing as non-physical existence. I've
maintained all along that existence exists. If something is physical, it
exists, and is thereby implied; if something is non-physical, it exists, and
is thereby implied. But I do not break the concept 'existence' in two against
itself as you do in your "arguments". This is conceptually
unwarranted and it can only lead to further false dichotomies and an outright
rejection of reality. Additionally, I've simply asked you to define what you
mean by "non-physical existence," since you keep trying to say that
it exists. I think you've interpreted that my questions constitute a negation,
but this is a hasty generalization on your part.
"Agreed. The primacy of consciousness is invalid. Existence holds
metaphysical primacy over consciousness. This rules out all god-beliefs."
"No it doesn't."
Well, there we have it! A blatant affirmation of the primacy of consciousness
metaphysics. This is grand!
"Prove that this rules out any god-belief."
Gee, should I have to? The Monkey was sharp enough to see this without having
to have his hand held. Now, that's ironic!
"It does not follow that because existence exists, then God cannot
exist--If God exists then BY DEFINITION existence must exist too. Your
conclusion does not follow. In fact, it's totally illogical."
Not at all. You're obviously not integrating here. If existence exists, then
there's no need for a god whatsoever. Why? Because existence exists. Existence
cannot be "explained" by appealing to "something prior";
there is nothing "prior" to existence, for it would also have to
exist, thus negating any explanatory value in positing this
"priority." The proper place is to start with existence as such, as
Objectivism teaches, not with a form of consciousness, as religion does, for
this commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. If existence exists (and it
does), then existence exists independent of consciousness. Consciousness is
consciousness of existence, and existence does not conform to consciousness
(try wishing something into existence, Peter, it won't work). Simply,
existence holds metaphysical primacy, thus, the primacy of consciousness, and
every expression thereof, is invalid. Game, set and match. You're done.
Peter had written:
"As a result, existence exists and is proven by consciousness."
I corrected him:
"I wouldn't say 'proven'."
"Why? Consciousness cannot exist apart from existence--therefore
since consciousness is, then existence must be. Ergo, existence is
As you yourself state, consciousness cannot exist apart from existence. That's
because existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness. To assert
that one can "prove" the fact that existence exists, is to accept a
stolen concept (and it also begs the question, too). I think I explained this,
and you snipped it from your quote.
"What is meant by the idea 'invalid data'?"
"How many times do I have to tell you?"
Gee, how many times do I have to point out your reliance on stolen concepts?